Joined: 29 Nov 2007 Posts: 452 Location: Somewhere in Chile
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:02 am Post subject: What's "manly" for you?
A certain somebody (Heartbreak) asked me for the most manly thing I've ever done, I had to look in my memories for these moments and then choose which is the most "manly". Then I had to face the question: what's manly?? we all have an idea of what it is, but there's no good definition of manly out there. Dictionary says: gifted with fecundating organs (WTF!!!).
In order to get an answer I asked some of my friends for this, obtaining different answers from each one, so until now manly is: anything that is gross, brave, stupid or daring (or all the previously mentioned), for me the most manly thing is "to wear a tie".
So I hear you, girls' opinion is specially welcomed _________________ "just imagine a good signature, and then put it here"
To me, "manly" always makes me think of the artificial standards that society has created that try to straitjacket all males into a particular narrow mold of what they 'should' be like, then try to browbeat and humiliate them into complying, thus stifling many of their natural urges, rather than letting them explore all parts of themselves as human beings with a full spectrum of thoughts and feelings,
Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 2398 Location: Behind a desk.
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:56 am Post subject:
Then again, I'm sure you glad that we're not all running around having our way with women, that being one of the impulses that get suppressed and all.
Joking aside, some traits that I would say are manly for the modern man would be: Courage and Confidence, tempered with Compassion.
Personally, I'm still trying to get a better understanding of who I am so I can better myself in those three areas. _________________ "Addiction can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only be changed."
-Clango, Diesel Sweeties
===
I (heart) Hanners of Questionable Content.
I think that's just part of being civilized, actually.
I like what Dave said there: Courage, Confidence, and Compassion. I think being 'manly' is a lot like just being a strong person. Standing up for what you feel is right, protecting yourself and your friends from harm, and helping people who need it. That kind of thing.
Feel free to skip this next part (sorry for the rant):
/mini rant
I think it's just ancient gender stereotyping that took all the traits of 'strength' (both physical and a bit of emotional) and applied them exclusively to men, then told men they weren't allowed to do any of the things assigned to women (nurturing, showing compassion or other emotions, having 'domestic' interests) without being considered 'not manly enough'.
(Also, just in case there are any misunderstandings, I want to mention that I'm not a 'feminist' in the sense it's come to be used. I'm a 'humanist', I guess you could say, who believes all people regardless of gender or physical sex or other characteristics, deserve to be able to be themselves and explore their own thoughts and emotions to become fully realized individuals. Gender stereotyping and segregation FTL.)
I actually think two things that are very many is Dave admitting to crying at the end of a walk to remember and what yino said. I just think things that most people would laugh at or something that is very sweet or nice is very manly. I just asked that question because it's intresting to see what people think is manly and what isn't. _________________ IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 1187 Location: On the edge!
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject:
Heartbreakshow wrote:
I actually think two things that are very many is Dave admitting to crying at the end of a walk to remember
Gaaaaaaaaaay. UNLESS you're using the strat of Crying = comfort = action. It's kinda like jumping at horror movies even if you're not scared.
To me, manly can go a buncha different directions. Part of it is doing manly things, like drinking beer, watching football, punching eachother, building something... or fucking some dude up with a silenced shotgun (fully agree, Kara) That's like the stereotype manly.... and seriously... doing THOSE things are fucking comforting sometimes.
Other than that you can see manly as doing right by your lady/friends. Kicking the FUCK outta people who do something horrible to 'em, treatin' them good, etc etc. You gotta be secure enough in your manliness to take your girlfriend who is obsessed with Mandy Moore to see License to Wed as a surprise on her birthday... ugh.
Now for me, the manliest shit I ever did was drive myself over a mile, from the gym to my house... with 2 broken wrists and a broken elbow. Fuckin' endorphin's and adrenaline ROCK. _________________
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 961 Location: Hells kitchen
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject:
I think Mike pretty much covered the spectrum on this one. _________________ ~jynx~
I need to go to my Happy place, but I accidentally blew it up, so now I have to find a new one...
Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 888 Location: Huntington Beach, California
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:15 am Post subject:
madcatmonkey wrote:
I think that's just part of being civilized, actually.
I like what Dave said there: Courage, Confidence, and Compassion. I think being 'manly' is a lot like just being a strong person. Standing up for what you feel is right, protecting yourself and your friends from harm, and helping people who need it. That kind of thing.
Feel free to skip this next part (sorry for the rant):
/mini rant
I think it's just ancient gender stereotyping that took all the traits of 'strength' (both physical and a bit of emotional) and applied them exclusively to men, then told men they weren't allowed to do any of the things assigned to women (nurturing, showing compassion or other emotions, having 'domestic' interests) without being considered 'not manly enough'.
(Also, just in case there are any misunderstandings, I want to mention that I'm not a 'feminist' in the sense it's come to be used. I'm a 'humanist', I guess you could say, who believes all people regardless of gender or physical sex or other characteristics, deserve to be able to be themselves and explore their own thoughts and emotions to become fully realized individuals. Gender stereotyping and segregation FTL.)
/end mini rant
When you look at human pre-history you find that many civilizations began as hunter-gatherer tribes. Hunting and gathering your food was pretty tough business. Every member of this primitive society had to exert tremendous amounts of energy just to subsist. This, then, drove each member of the society to do its part to contribute to the overall tribe's survival, forcing each memeber - whether they liked it or not - to play to his or her strengths. Men in general were physiologically and psychologically more attuned for the hunt than women so women had to find other means of contributing to the tribe. Thus we have the beginnings of gender roles. It was a matter of survival, not preconception and prejudice.
It wasn't until the advent of farming (or mass food production) that specialized roles in primitive societies came about. Farming, as a whole, produced far more food than the tribe could eat which gave rise to stratified roles in the society: hereditary monarchs, warrior classes, religious leaders and so on and so forth. This is not to say that these specialized roles did not exist in early hunter-gatherer societies. On the contrary, they were necessary for the proper organization of the tribe if it was going to, not only survive, but conquer its weaker neighbors thereby making the tribe stronger with a larger pool of resources (more people to hunt and gather means a better chance of survival). The difference, however, is that in more advanced societies that were mass producing food, they're specialized classes could devote their entire lifetimes to their particular specialization whereas in more primitive societies the specialists had to, at times, hunt and gather food or they would not survive the winter let alone conquer anybody.
So here's my point: when specialists came about it created tradition and precedent. Specialists realized that in order for them, and their progeny, to maintain the power that was given to them they had to maintain control over their fellow tribe members. Some did this with religion (Judaism during the rule of Augustus is a prime example, but ask me about it later), a caste system (early Japanese history - again ask me about it later), gender specific laws, and so on and so forth. I believe this is the time when (the medieval period for most developed countries) gender traditions arose and the image of men juxtaposed with the notion of strength was seeded in our collective psyches. Thanks to Madison Avenue and Hollywood we find that preconceptions about gender roles still plague us today.
Read Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel if you're interested in the history of the development of societies. It's a fascinating read. It won the Pulitzer too. _________________ Conan! What is best in life?
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!"
Actually, that does sound pretty interesting. I enjoy learning about history and society like that. I may look up that book. Thanks for the recommendation!
I can certainly acknowledge that there is a valid evolutionary or cultural basis for the creation of the stereotype, but what I don't like is when it takes things to the extreme and tries to limit people into _only_ expressing very particular traits, rather than acknowledging all their potential characteristics. The average man may indeed be physically stronger than the average woman, and the average woman more nurturing than the average man, for example, but that doesn't mean that a woman shouldn't be allowed to be strong and athletic, or a man to be sensitive and caring, without being ridiculed for not being 'manly' or 'womanly' enough.
Joined: 29 Nov 2007 Posts: 452 Location: Somewhere in Chile
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject:
That seems like a good book treb, thanks for the recomendation.
Anyway, even when the stereotype has a valid evolutionary root, there is no actual reason to keep it, In former society men and women can do the same thing with the same results (most of time, but I won't discuss this), so eventually there will be nothing that identifies the gender. For example, a girl can drive a car whit her both wrists broken and she will still be femenine, she will open a wine bottle with a drill and still be femenine or face a full gang of bangers and still be femenine, so let me reformulate the question
Is there something that a girl can't do without losing her femininity? _________________ "just imagine a good signature, and then put it here"
Joined: 29 Nov 2007 Posts: 452 Location: Somewhere in Chile
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject:
Then I re-reformulate the question
Is there something that a girl can't do without losing her femininity, while still being phisically a girl? _________________ "just imagine a good signature, and then put it here"
I don't think so, personally, but I suppose it depends on your definition.
To me, if someone is female, and identifies as female, then she is feminine, therefore her femininity can't be 'lost' just because she performs an act that some other people might consider to be 'masculine'. It doesn't change the fact that she's female.
femininity
noun
1. The quality or condition of being feminine: femaleness, feminineness, womanliness. See gender.
2. Women in general: distaff, muliebrity, womanhood, womankind, womenfolk. See gender.
3. The quality of being effeminate: effeminacy, effeminateness, sissiness, unmanliness, womanishness. See gender.
Likewise, a man isn't suddenly not 'masculine' just because he performs an act someone else considers to be 'feminine', in my opinion. I don't think it matters how others judge an action; different cultures have different definitions of masculine or feminine behavior. For example, in our cultures, women wear makeup. However, in some African cultures, men wear makeup, to try to be attractive and win a mate. So we might say 'that's feminine behavior' but someone from that culture would say 'no, that's masculine behavior.'
I like what you said here though,
Quote:
Anyway, even when the stereotype has a valid evolutionary root, there is no actual reason to keep it, In former society men and women can do the same thing with the same results (most of time, but I won't discuss this), so eventually there will be nothing that identifies the gender.
I would really like to see the gender constructs in our society done away with, so people can do whatever they are capable of doing, without being judged relative to an arbitrary gender standard.
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